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Patch Poll: Does the Tea Party Speak for You?

If you've been watching the GOP presidential debates you may have caught Wolf Blitzer's hypothetical health care question of Candidate Ron Paul. The truly revealing response, in our opinion, came from the audience.

 

Lamorindans are not bashful about sharing their opinion, we know by looking at our comment stream, but we have grown curious about increasingly hard-line positions adopted and defended by Patch users of late.

Many of these ideas and positions appear to mirror those expressed by Tea Party members, several of whom made no bones about what should happen to an ailing countryman during a recent GOP presidential debate (see related video).

Disclaimer: The video includes some anti-Tea Party messaging at the beginning and end, but was chosen for its image quality solely, and not because of its support for one group over another.

A new, "No more big government, more personal responsibility" mentality seems to have emerged, with many apparently feeling it's okay to leave others to die at the side of the road if they can no longer pay their own way.

To us, that response seemed unusually harsh for a country known for its largesse, but perhaps we're missing something, we're not exactly sure. We'd be interesed in finding out if this position is shared by a relative few or many here in Lamorinda.

The attached poll might help us better gauge the depth of current local sentiment.

Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 09:15 pm
DD: If provided in the context of a rational and competitive market, $5K would go a long way. Nurse practitioners can do a lot. I'd also do major tort reform.
Finally, the rack-rate "out-of-pocket" prices are skewed dramatically higher for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the inherent cost of procedures. Need $100K of brain surgery and don't have insurance? Sorry, buddy--- you're gonna die. Am I a monster? Substitute $1M. How about $10M? $100M? Where do I cease being a monster-- it's just a question of line drawing, isn't it? In terms of property and liens, I agree with you that poor people are poor (duh), but to the maximum extent possible I want to shift the policy from "free" to "we will begrudgingly save your butt, but you will owe us." I am worried about INCENTIVES more than likelihood of collecting. If something is perceived as free, will people tend to consume more or less than the socially optimal amount?
Eastofthehills February 2, 2012 at 09:26 pm
I "need" society to pay so I can live longer and in less "pain". To that end I want to quite my job and be paid to exercise, eat healthy, and have relations with attractive young women. This will greatly improve my chances of living longer; denying me this critical medical care would violate my rights and be like a death sentance. I project that this change in lifestyle could potentially add 10 to 15 years to my life span. I will need between $100K to $200K per year in "medical care" to do this. I will need this amount for remainder of my life adjusted for inflation.
Or you could just tell me to drop dead.
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 09:44 pm
DD: $5K is not intended to be a "reasonable" budget to cover the bulk of acute care. I specifically want to keep the number so low that uncovered people will EXPECT to receive a MATERIALLY lower quality of care. I am thinking: stop the bleeding, stitch you up and send you home. Not get an MRI, CAT scan, and spend night in hospital for observation by an expert staff of doctors. And if you need brain surgery, sorry, but you're gonna die.
I obviously just made up $5K-- maybe that's not the right number, but if it were $50K, why would anyone get insurance?
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 09:53 pm
In terms of billing people, again I am talking about incentives. The gov't would "front" the money up to my cap-- doctors would not eat the bad debt. If the cap is reached, we send people home. For complications in child birth, I would fund a cheapy C-section, probably performed by a nurse practitioner.
In terms of what to do with the 40% of births from medicare, I personally think that contraception or abortion would be preferred versus encouraging financially irresponsible people to have kids they can't afford. (Apologies to Mr. Santorum) Statistically, the vast majority of births (>80% ?) would go off without a hitch even with zero spend on pre-natal care. How about this rule: if you have one baby on Medicaid, we force you to get Norplant until you can prove your financial responsibility.
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 10:37 pm
DD: Not saying it will be easy to implement. It is not impossible to make on-the-fly decisions about scarce medical resources. Think of the triage function in battlefield hospitals. That it the level of care I am imagining.
My baseline is: no money and no insurance equals no care. I am just trying to temper that extreme position with the most basic of safety nets (e.g., don't let people bleed to death when first aid or a few stitches could save them). That is my framework. That I do not have all the answers on the details is not a rebuttal of my framework. What would you do?
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 10:44 pm
The power of incentives... what are we talking about exactly? The carrot or the stick? If you want something, figure out how to get it, and do it. That is what I am talking about.
Regarding the other matter, I think you own whatever you can keep. If the mob (Roman) takes away your property it's no longer your's. Ideology is not relevant in the face of reality. About my plan. It might be an interesting starting point. I'm sure I would need to iterate to perfect it in practice. If I force you to keep your wealth active in the economy am I taking it from you or simply forcing you to participate in society, economically? You might lose your money but you could also make more. The more money you make the wealthier you are, but you can't just sit on it. As a wealthy individual you still derive satisfaction, accomplishment, power, capability, and station. All you lose is the ability to sit on vast amounts of wealth to provide for your future security while taking no risk and essentially hoarding your gains in life, and the gains of many generations of your family as such.
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 10:51 pm
I hear you, but spending on Public Defenders is about $6B, compared to about $750B on medicare/caid. It kinda is chump change.
We spend about $50B on prisons and $180B on public safety, so I think $6B is a reasonable part of total spending on criminal justice. Probably some savings to be had there, but I personally would go after prison guard pensions before telling an indigent guy accused of a felony that he needs to fly solo in court. Our justice system relies on adversarial representation, so you'd have to totally overhaul it if you wanted to save on indigent defense costs (assuming you cared about justice and fairness).
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 10:57 pm
FYI:
National defense gets $1,016, or 26.3% of the total bill. Health care: $939 (24.3%). Job and family security: $846 (21.9%). Education and job training: $185 (4.8%). Veteran benefits: $158 (4.1%). Natural resources, energy, and environment: $81 (2.1%). International affairs: $66 (1.7%). Science, space, and technology programs: $46 (1.2%). Immigration, law enforcement, and justice: $77 (2%). Agriculture: $31 (0.8%). Community, area, and regional development: $19 (0.5%). Response to natural disasters: $15 (0.4%). Additional government programs: $93 (2.4%). Net interest: $286 (7.4%).
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 10:58 pm
If you want big gains go for the big percentages.
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 11:01 pm
Shon: In what respect is it even *possible* to "sit on wealth?" What money is "idle?" If I have money in T-bills (generally considered "idle cash") I am, in fact, loaning it to the government to fund it's debts. In return I currently get zero or negative real returns on that. If I get $1M in cash and keep under my bed, I am loaning the government my money without interest and for sure get a negative return. "Rich people sitting on their money" is kind of a myth.
Maybe you mean "force them to invest in high risk equities." Before you do that, you should do the thought experiment of the macro impact of preventing people from investing in public and private bonds. What would your world look like? Is that a better world than we have now?
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 11:05 pm
I was stating reinvest in elements that directly create or maintain jobs. IE if you own a business reinvest in expanding said business instead of taking the money out and parking it.
Chris Nicholson February 2, 2012 at 11:20 pm
That incentive already exists. If a shareholder of a company can earn a 14% HIGHER return in one year with an outside investment (e.g., start a new business) versus an internal investment (existing company buys a new machine), the shareholder will currently choose the LOWER return, because he needs to pay 15% (plus state taxes-- ~10% in CA) to take the money out and reinvest it elsewhere. Are you proposing a further distortion? Why?
Again, I would humbly request that you spend more time thinking about what money is really "idle" and why we would ever prefer a rule that requires people NOT invest where the expect the highest (risk adjusted) returns.
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 11:23 pm
I just read an interesting statistic:
1 in 7 American homes are empty 1 in 42 Americans are homeless Imagine for a second the sort of things that just wouldn't happen if everyone was essentially not allowed to leave income or assets idle.
Shon Sherwood February 2, 2012 at 11:28 pm
You're assuming way too much and it's becoming rather annoying. If I built a system to address these issues it would work after iterating sufficiently to flush out the problems and solutions. Anything you can imagine that would be a problem in this system and not work, you should be assuming it wouldn't be structured that way. Anything else assumes far too much.
Eileen February 3, 2012 at 01:02 am
As this has become a conversation about health care, I'll add my two cents. Before anyone assigns me a label, I'll choose: "freemarket socialist." I've used it for years and was tickled to see NYT's David Brooks promote it recently.
The current health care delivery and payment system in the US is oddly distorted v. other "insurance" and "service delivery" systems here. First, the AMA has consciously limited the expansion of MD-granting progams in the US, contributing to a shortage in the supply of new doctors into our growing market. Second, the fact that two families with equal "demands" on the system, in terms of family size and health, might be required to pay different monthly co-pays - for the insurance premium, co-pay for a doctor visit or a prescription - based on the negotaiting power of their employer, or the fact that they have no employer sponsor, is absurd. Third, doctiors need to be better informed about the cost of services when advising patients - as any lawyer or accountant would be when providing counsel. I visited my MD prior to a trip to a Central American country and while discussing immunization options, he could not tell me what the costs of the recommendeed drugs in "oral" v. "injected" form would be. (This was pertinent as it would be out of pocket and there was evidently some meaningful difference.) I would like to see more reforms to the wacky current system, by whichever President and Congress is in place, for the betterment of America.
CJ February 3, 2012 at 01:57 am
Well Eileen. I think we agree on some of this.
I am firmly against Obamacare and the current staus quo at the same time. I believe that with some smart adjustments to the current system it is possible to keep the incentives and keep costs and future increases reasonable. But it has to cross some 3rd rails to get there. Maybe the threat of centralized gov't care can convince us freemarket capitalist types to make the jump.At the end of the day it becomes a key cost component at the very core economics of it.
Tony Rodriguez February 3, 2012 at 12:04 pm
Lots of tough talk, which I have to discount because (a) I'd be more impressed with the fervor were it coming from a "starve the beast" type who was writing from a working class town after finishing his/her median income job, than from people sitting cushy, and (b) I suspect the tough talkers would count on some, gasp, public employee to be the one to tell the spouse and kids, well, we've hit the $5K mark, but you need to get your affairs in order (and likely would grouse about that employee's compensation, benefits, etc.). This seems akin to me to the rowdy and boisterous types who are all for sending someone else's kid into combat.
Chris Nicholson February 3, 2012 at 12:56 pm
T-Rod: My comments were targeted at the article's core thesis: are "Tea Party People" pure enough with the libertarian-flavored parts of their message to allow poor people to die more often if the market allocates medical resources. I have tried to make the semi-pure affirmative case for this, while allowing for a very basic safety net for trauma victims.
If we are talking about health care reform fundamentally, then I agree with KDDT that we need to look at the whole value chain and figure out how to get more with less. I think this means using much better bang-for-buck for basic care. I think one important key here is more "nurse practitioner" type of jobs and fewer specialized/expensive doctors/gear/drugs. Your analogy to poor kids going off to war is actually pretty accurate (although opens it's own can of worms). People like to survive (it's in the DNA). Improving odds of survival requires resources. Resources are scarce. All other things being equal, those with more resources will live longer. I don't think this is a problem/anomaly to be fixed. It describes the basic human condition on earth since our species evolved. In a very real sense, this is part of what makes us human....
Cheryl February 3, 2012 at 01:32 pm
Show your support for the tea party movement with flag, banners or lapel pins with the gadsden design at http://www.gettysburgflag.com/TEA-Party.php
ObserverNH February 3, 2012 at 01:41 pm
You don't even know if that person was a tea party person or not. Ron Paul as a doctor gave out more free services to people than anyone, especially to minorities. The real tea party 2007 supports Ron Paul.. always has, always will.
Janet Maiorana February 3, 2012 at 02:34 pm
Regular Guy - I understand the US is worse off than Greece. As for the Health Care Sytem: Get government regulations and attorneys out of the system and costs would plummet.
Mimi Steel February 3, 2012 at 04:13 pm
The nature of your poll question completely misses the point. Have you ever heard the question "Are you still beating your wife". No matter how you answer, the assumption is built in to the question. You obviously don't want an honest discussion. You just want to paint the Tea Party in a bad light. The real issue is should the FEDERAL government be involved in these types of decisions and the is NO. The FEDERAL government was not designed to be your Nanny, your Mother, or your Father. The FEDERAL government should have a very limited role in society with most power at the local level. Certainly there are charities, churches and local groups or individuals that can help. What about the person's family? How were people taken care of before the FEDS started interfering in health care.
If you want to have a real conversaton about these issues, stop with the stupid polls. Let's have a dialog or debate what types of solutions make sense. For every dollar that goes to the FEDERAL government, something like 20% of it actually get used for the goods or services. The rest is overhead. Let's keep the money local and make decisions locally.
CJ February 3, 2012 at 06:06 pm
After 80+ years of bending. The line in the sand has to be drawn. We have had enough pragmatism. Time to reverse some of the overeach.
The next step if this doesn't occur you will really not like.
CJ February 3, 2012 at 06:06 pm
Got several already!!
fredsbreakfast February 6, 2012 at 01:22 pm
'Jaded and cruel'? Ron Paul didn't say let people die: he's saying that what's truly scary is a country where there's zero limit to how much your neighbors may force you to pay for whatever is the majority's notion of 'health'. That's unconstitutional and will definitely lead to our complete ruin; the ruin of the largest 'private' giving and charitable people ever in human history. The great churches and private charities were all growing and thriving long before the explosion of growth of the welfare state began 80 years ago. The one or two zealots yelling 'yeah' in the audience were probably Ron Paul whackos or left-liberal plants. Ordinary Americans and Tea Party people aren't interested in allowing their neighbors to die if something reasonable can be done, but we're no longer interested in funding a federal government encouraging those with victim mentalities to demand infinitely increasing special 'rights' and entitlements. Churches no longer have resources to care (and 'truly' 'care' by the way) because we've now placed our dollars and our spirit and faith with your uncaring federal government. Read this ~ 'The Tragedy of American Compassion' by Marvin Olasky.
fredsbreakfast February 6, 2012 at 01:43 pm
It's not just a setup, it's pure idiocy really. Problem is, anyone willing to believe the clear message of 'hate the Tea Party 'cause they're mean and cruel' in that video doesn't want seriously to know what's going on. That's what scares me; how few people still do understand and respect why limited government really means and why it matters to our survival as free people. There's diminishing interest in liberty today and that will soon be a much greater problem than who pays your 'health' costs. 99% of what we spend on health and medical care wouldn't even exist without freedom from unlimited federal government. There was little cruelty and meanness involved in founding a country based on guaranteeing what you God gives you; there's infinite cruelty in what unrestricted and growing centralized government will increasingly take from you. Read 'Free to Choose' by Friedman - seriously, it's a fun book to read - and will change the way you see and understand the world. Or go to a Tea Party and try to find anyone at all the least bit mean and cruel - talk to people, see how they treat you. You'll be surprised.
fredsbreakfast February 7, 2012 at 04:20 pm
Tony, "have to discount"? I'm a gardener: how does that affect the quality of my thinking, or the rightness or wrongness of my philosophy or ideology or the virtuousness of my public policy proposals? So if I don't live full time in my books--or , as you suggest full time in my labors--does that alone make the ideas I subscribe to inferior? So do you really believe that after the trillionth dollar is spent on someone's health 'needs' we should say "absolutely, of course - we should continue spending indefinitely on this fellow - to infinity"? Is that really what you think Tony?
fredsbreakfast February 7, 2012 at 05:18 pm
CJ - is there really any hope? Do enough people get it? A third of the colonists supported the Revolution, but only a quarter of educated Lamorindans chose 'A' in this little poll. Tony discounts the economic and political viewpoints of those more successful at earning money than himself. I think this class warfare stuff may be our doom. At this point in the game I think Tony has won.
Patrice Martens February 7, 2012 at 05:24 pm
Seems to me like people are discussing it just fine.
Fritz 'Congodog' Stoop February 10, 2012 at 01:17 am
The American 2 Party system has evaporated into a pathetic amalgam, referred to by some as a Mediocracy. A Mediocracy occurs in a democracy in which mediocre people (and their ideas) prevail. The afflicted society is then subordinated into an idealistic ideology in which words and ideas are redefined by mediocre people, so as to be convenient for mediocre people.
Fearful that the new, monstrously large democracy is more and more ungainly and vulnerable to harsher realities like totalitarianism or fascism, attempts are made to moderate rhetoric so as to reach the largest amount of people possible and thus gain support (power). Symptomatic of the Mediocracy is an utter absence of leadership figures, strong personalities so appealing with such rhetorical aplomb that they galvanize the population into alignment along traditional political lines. A certain type of political huckster recognizes the opportunities presented by this stagnant state and revisits simplistic, "common sense" solutions with historical significance endemic to that society. The rudderless populace is desperate for relief as this essential condition (political stability) slips slowly into chaos. Enter Sara Palin and the Tea Party. History will see this barely educated, simplistic, unsophisticated demagogue's brief rise to insane heights as the result of the absence of true political leadership. She and her ilk, managed to lift fringe-thinkers out of the shadows and empower them.

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